Today on Skip the Queue, we’re exploring the tension between commercial reality and heritage integrity, how organisations generate income, stay sustainable, and still protect the stories, places and collections in their care. I’m really pleased to be joined by Richard Paterson, Chief Operating Officer at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, to unpack how that balance plays out in the real world.
In this live episode of Skip the Queue, recorded at the Association of Cultural Enterprises Conference, Andy Povey is joined by Richard Paterson, Chief Operating Officer at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, to explore the delicate balance between commercial performance and heritage protection.
Richard shares practical, real-world strategies for running sustainable cultural attractions in a challenging post-Covid landscape from improving ticket yield to rethinking discount strategies.
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Richard Paterson, Chief Operating Officer at the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your host is Andy Povey.
Credits:
Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster)
Edited by Steve Folland
Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster)
Andy Povey: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast made by and for people working in and with visitor attractions, brought to you in partnership with Merac. I'm your host, Andy Povey. And today on Skip the Queue, we're exploring the tension between commercial reality and heritage integrity. How do organisations generate income, stay sustainable and still protect the stories, places and collections in their care?
I'm really pleased to be joined by Richard Paterson, the Chief Operating Officer at Shakespeare's Birthplace Trust. And together we're going to unpack how this balance plays out in the real world. And unusually, today we're coming to you live or a live recording from the Association of Cultural Enterprises Conference.
Richard Paterson: My name is Richard Paterson. I'm Chief Operating Officer for the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust. I have been at the Birthplace Trust for a little over 10 months. I joined in the middle of March last year, but prior to that I was also at Alexandra palace in North London and prior to that I was at Birmingham Museums Trust. So this is a world where I am familiar with. I've worked in a number of different organisations doing a number of different interesting things. Some very commercial, but in the heritage sector, but some also just heritage, but with a bit of commercial. So there's a nice balance of the two.
Andy Povey: It's not just a variety of locations you've been in. I think when we first met, you were Chief Financial Officer for Birmingham Museum Struts. So our conversation today about the commercial realities of running a heritage venue, really, I can't think of anyone that's better qualified to help us with that.
Richard Paterson: Yeah, so. Yeah. So being. So doing the step between finance and OPS is an interesting one and I think it's an interesting dynamic between. I think it was very difficult. So in my first roles when I was Finance director or in finance, you always needed to have. And you always with the point of call in terms of OPS and commercial and that decision making. So actually it's quite an easy transition from one to the other. But having now seen it on the other side, you do see a different perspective as well.
Andy Povey: Very much so. And I mean, ultimately, we all need the finances to work properly, don't we? I mean, everyone needs to get paid at the end of the month, so it's equally as important as the whole operation side of things. So looking at what you're doing today with Shakespeare's Birthplace Trust, what is the sort of key driver? What's the big imperative in that heritage cultural organization? Is it more visitors, more money or more money from fewer visitors? What's the priority at the moment?
Richard Paterson: So I say it's a bit of all of that. So I think it's been. So we live in a world which is difficult. I think heritage in particular is difficult. So money is tight. There's not a lot of money back. I think pre Covid, particularly with Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, they didn't really have to try very hard to get their visitors. Visitors were coming naturally, they were finding us naturally. Post Covid, I think it's different. So there was that initial peak and wave initially when people were left back to out into the countryside and into museums and into venues and doing stuff that they couldn't do during COVID but that initial wave kind of has waned when people realized actually they could go overseas and they could do over the things that they wanted to do.
Richard Paterson: Therefore, there's a real complexity around whether we want more visitors, more income, more yield, higher dwell time. So all of those things start to play into the mix as to how we move from where we are today to where we want to get to.
Andy Povey: Interesting. And how does that differ from your experience at Alipalli? I mean, it's a very different audience and market that you're dealing with.
Richard Paterson: A very different audience. So Alipalli is a really interesting. It's a very big commercial beast where it is generating huge amounts of money from its commercial enterprises, be it the darts, be it gigs, be it things in the theatre. They've got an ice rink, they've got a pub, they've got outside food vendors. There's a whole real mix. And therefore the commercial imperative is different. Therefore that. Actually there's an interesting dynamic between.
Richard Paterson: Actually, the trading situation is by far the bigger beast. And therefore the dynamic between the two organisations is an interesting one because actually the commercial imperative can become too dominant versus the cultural heritage side, which is going. Actually, we're a charity at the end of the day, who is responsible for a grade two listed iconic building. And therefore how do you balance those two things out? Particularly when the commercial beast is so dominant?
Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, it has to be there to keep the lights on.
Richard Paterson: Well, absolutely. And actually all of that profit that gets gifted back to the charity is all important. Actually. One of the challenges actually were in many ways was actually how you can predict the profitability of the trading subsidiary, which was a really big number and a big contributing factor to how the challenges were going to operate. So actually it was a really interesting dynamic between the two.
Andy Povey: No, very interesting. And how's that then? Play across to Shakespeare's birthplace Trust.
Richard Paterson: What are your priorities there so it's a completely different context, but a really interesting context. So we've got the five family homes right across Stratford from the birthplace. We can do cradle to grave in terms of his life and his storytelling and we can tell the story of the man and what inspired him and why he wrote the things that he wrote. That is what we do, that is what makes us unique. Else can play that role. I think we've got a really interesting place to play in driving up yield. So one of the things we've done in the last 12 months is look at yields.
Richard Paterson: When I stepped into the role in March last year, one of the first things we did, we talked about income yield and income yield was less than 50% of the total ticket price, which is really low relative to the market. And so we looked at why this was happening. There was a lot of tickets were giving away free. We had a lot offers around with organization like Tesco Club Card, with the local scouts, you name it, we gave them a discount. And if you have a Blue Peter badge, you can still get in free. All that kind of stuff plays into it. But actually what was also playing into it is weren't giving our customers what they really wanted and weren't giving them the ticket they wanted.
Richard Paterson: So we know that 80% of our visitors only visit once. A portion of those will only visit because they are local. A large portion of those people are coming to Stratford for this first time, doing the thing in Stratford and leaving. And therefore they only really got time to do one of our venues, not five venues. So what we want, what we did is we focused on giving them the ticket for the birthplace, which is our primary income driver. And then everything else then gets added on. A bit like when you buy a ticket online, air so you are in control of your sales process.
Richard Paterson: And actually by the end, even if you buy everything that you want and it then gets captured in one big basket, we will then give you the discount as if you'd bought the ticketing, the global Access all areas ticket right at the beginning. So that has been a big shift and has had made a between a 25 and 30% difference in shift income yield based on a visitor number which was either flat or slightly declining this year.
Andy Povey: Well, and that's something you've done in the last 10 months. Just break apart that big single product into multiple products.
Richard Paterson: And to be honest, I'm not sure it was that complicated. There was a lot of work that went into it and I think my Colleagues have put in a huge amount of work in order to get us to where we got to. But at the end of the day we just, we focused on giving the customers what they wanted, which is we know they want just to go to see the birthplace. And yes, if they want to go and see one of our other venues, I want to go and see Anne Hathaway Scottish, then fine, they can buy that ticket. And that's just part of the customer journey. And because we're giving customers what they want.
Richard Paterson: Actually what we've also found is people are buying add ons and they're not taking add ons up. But the process is so simple and so engaging. They will go through the process and feel like they've got value out of that process.
Andy Povey: That's really interesting, putting the customer at the centre of what you're doing. I mean it's what we talk about all the time and why we're trying to do this. So how did you actually work out that was what the customer wanted? Was that just research? Was it feedback from people?
Richard Paterson: There was a mixture of feedback from people, feedback from customers. I think we did a piece of work with consultancy to just see whether were doing something that didn't quite chime with customers. I also think there was also something that we've done which is quite different. I think is what I've tried to reemphasise to the team and the organisation is that we can test things and pilot things, review them, learn from them and move on. And actually we can evolve as we go. We don't have to have a perfectly defined product or a perfectly defined thing that we are trying to do and it be all or one success or fail.
Richard Paterson: And actually what we've done quite a lot of is actually let's see, let's put it out there, see how it works, see how the customers react, see if they react positively, negatively what the feedback is. One of the things we've also done is we've also implemented a on site ticket charge. So we charge £1 per ticket if you're buying in person versus nothing if you're buying online. In order to drive people more online, in order to us to balance load the ticket sales and particularly over the busy periods during the summer, we want people to come on an even basis. And so what we've done is we implemented it to try and drive people online. Actually what we've done is we've just driven income up because people are still buying on the door.
Richard Paterson: So 80% of our businesses own buy on the door, which is extraordinary. And I can't quite work out why. And I don't think we're quite there yet with understanding why our customers only do a on site, physically in person meeting. But we've had not one single complaint. So one of the things we'll do in the coming months is look at actually whether we make that £1, £1 50 ticket and that will then have an incremental income, either on income or actually will do what we actually wanted to do, which is actually drive. Move the behaviour online.
Andy Povey: Yeah, behaviour. And move the visit to an online transaction. So looking at the visitor mix to Shakespeare's birthplace for us, I mean, obviously you've got the Shakespeare aficionados who are going to visit every property and come back multiple times and do some research. Then you've got the tourists who are coming in and it's almost on the shopping list of things to do when you're in the uk. How's that mixed balance?
Richard Paterson: So we believe fundamentally that Shakespeare is quite literally for everyone. So whether you are that Shakespearean scholar who wants to research the. The portfolio or one of our first folios, or want to look at our archive, that's one element. And actually we want. The people who actually hated at school, didn't really engage, have come for just. They just want a nice day out.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Richard Paterson: And it's actually, I don't think we are specifically targeting one specific audience because we want to be that. That home for everyone and we want everyone to feel that they are able to come and engage in what we do. One of the things I think one of in our. As we evolve over the next two, three years, actually look at actually some of that storytelling because if we tell a bad story, we are doing the man who is one of the greatest, if not the greatest storyteller. A massive disservice if we can tell a lovely coherent story in order to get there.
Andy Povey: So difficult question, where do you sit on that Shakespearean love and the hate experience?
Richard Paterson: So I'm no Shakespearean scholar, no aficionado. I couldn't quote you a line from a play. However, I understand where he sits in terms of where we are in terms of the English language, his impact on society globally. He's one of those individuals who challenges us and continues to challenge us in terms of the thinking in terms of love, hate, war, peace, everything, every single emotion he has written about and he will challenge the reader about. He has an absolute place in contemporary culture as well as in understanding actually his influence on the Language itself.
Andy Povey: So looking back to your experience at the Birmingham Museums Trust, which is where you also ran multiple venues. So I think it's a similar number. Five or six venues in each.
Richard Paterson: Seven venues, yeah.
Andy Povey: So obviously a lot of the venues within Birmingham Museum Trust are free of charge or were free to enter when you were here.
Richard Paterson: Different between the two, I think now post Covid in particular, I think people understand that there is a need and a requirement to charge for heritage. They understand where the money is going for. They understand actually the importance of preserving these national assets for future generations. We are custodians at the end of the day we are here to make sure and ensure these properties are still in around. In 500 years time. Therefore everything we are doing now is only doing that and is only ever going to move us forward. One of the things I think I'm frustrated when I for the length of time I worked in heritage is when money is easy to make. Some organisations have forgotten some of the important principles of where we're trying to get to in terms of the preservation of those strategic assets.
Richard Paterson: And actually more money could be put into the preservation when money was. And money was easy to come by and it was easy and visitors were there. Whereas when it's hard and there's less money and there's less public funding, you have to fight that little bit harder for the. For money and therefore you have to make the offer that much more compelling.
Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you've obviously made a significant change to the structure of the offering to consumers with your ticket offer recently. What's been the impact of that on the smaller venues? Are you seeing a decrease in revenue for those smaller venues or so we only.
Richard Paterson: So one of the things, one of the major shifts we made is actually we made one of the venues free if you buy a birthplace ticket. So we could just push more people to the venue.
Andy Povey: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.
Richard Paterson: And visit numbers have gone up and we have been surprised actually as the increase in businesses we've had to the venue even by just making it free. And Hathaway's has seen. Well, and Hathaway's is a really interesting example because actually it's now starting to benefit from the Hamlet effect and the storytelling around William Shakespeare and Anne Hathaway's life together or Agnes is in the film and the book and therefore they've already had an up, they've had an uptick in visitors, albeit it's very early days since the film was released across the site. And again, I'd expect that to continue. One of the things we don't do, which is interesting, which we will fix, and we are looking to fix shortly, is we don't sell an Anne Hathaway only ticket on our OTA platforms.
Richard Paterson: So you can only buy a birthplace ticket. Because were trying to. They were trying to force visitors to our own website so they don't buy through the ota.
Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Richard Paterson: I think that's missing a trick. I think we need to at least trial something, put it out there, put it on the platform, see what difference it makes. Because people are naturally are. That's where they all naturally look. Go and look. I think there's an interesting dynamic also at play around how people are searching and it'd be interesting our audiences to understand whether actually people are. Their organic search is more AI driven now, therefore, how do we rank in terms of our AI search versus just organic search? So again, it's one of the really interesting things.
Andy Povey: Sounds like you were a presentation I was doing yesterday. So, moving away from the detail of the venues that you're at the moment and really for the benefit of the other attendees, the association of Cultural Enterprises event, what would be your advice to someone in your kind of position? Running a smaller venue with we've all got limited budgets, but with much more, much smaller budgets than you are used to running and with a smaller team, what would you be looking at?
Richard Paterson: So fundamentally, I would go back to basics, make sure you're doing all the things the customer offer is good, the ticket pricing is clear, signage is good. Go right back to basics. Go do everything as if you're walking into a venue for the. Look at it through fresh eyes, walking to the venue for the first time and go, is this the experience that I want if I'm a visitor, I think there is some making sure you can increase dwell time, make sure you have got ways and multiple ways for people to spend money. Again, you don't have to be in your face. It doesn't really have to be very provocative. But people who tend to come to venues and come to heritage organizations want to give you their money and therefore you need to give them the opportunity to give you their money.
Richard Paterson: And again, I went to Blenheim at Christmas and did their light show and did the house as well. They were really interesting example. So they're very good. I mean, there's a lot of it.
Andy Povey: Yep.
Richard Paterson: But they're very good at every single turn at getting the money out of your pocket. And they're not scared of telling you we are taking money from you because we're going to put it back into the house and we're doing a new roof and all that's good. And I think that's a really important lesson. I think you need to give customers as much an opportunity to spend their money as they can without being too kind of in your face and too kind of blatant about it.
Andy Povey: I mean, it's human nature, isn't it? That's how we show appreciation for something, even down to giving. Buying your barman a beer or giving the waiter a tip in a restaurant. That's how we show appreciation.
Richard Paterson: So, yeah, absolutely. We shouldn't be shy of that. That at all. And you shouldn't be shy also of saying why you're doing it and why it's important and actually the type of things the money will go to. So again, I think one of the things I don't think we're always good at in terms of the sector is evidencing where the money goes. And yeah, it's all well and good paying for my salary and it's great that it pays for my salary, but actually the fabric, the maintenance, keeping the lights on, keeping the toilets clean, that kind of stuff is also important too. And we shouldn't be shy about telling people that.
Andy Povey: No, no. I was talking to a customer only last week about their Christmas lights experience, very similar to Blenheim's, and they started selling marshmallows on sticks that you could toast yourself for a fiver. So that idea of doing something that, I mean, how complicated is it to get a marshmallow on a stick and put it over a fire? But people love it. So I completely agree with. Look at other things that you can offer. You talked about yield earlier and I think that's another really interesting area for the people to look at and look at your data and look and understand what tips have you got in that kind of space.
Richard Paterson: So we spent a lot of time a making sure the data was correct. Yeah, the data to start with was consistent. It was telling you the right story and it wasn't telling you the wrong story and telling leading you up the garden path. That's number one. I think you also need to. And we spend quite a lot of time understanding the dynamics around the audiences who are paying the full price versus the audiences who are paying a discounted price versus actually are all our discounts fair, consistent, even equitable. What we found and discovered that actually if you could Game the system and you could get a discount on a discount. Well, actually that was never the intention and therefore, actually the intention was, yeah, we want to give an audience base a 10 discount. Absolutely. We want to give concessions a discount. Absolutely.
Richard Paterson: But you shouldn't be able to get a concession price and then we give you another discount on top because you've got a Blue Peter badge or whatever you've got. So I think that is also part of it as well. So you need to really look at actually how these things are happening and why they're happening and then understand actually what are the key drivers. And actually if you're going to start to change some of the stuff, you also have to need to think about the unintended consequence of making a decision. But I think there are some simple levers you can pull without having a fundamental impact on, a negative impact on things. And actually you can also then keep an eye on what we did and what our ticketing manager did.
Richard Paterson: She kept an eye on yield on a day to day basis to see how it was shifting. So the data that were getting from our ticketing platform was really good and consistent and therefore it was easy to track to see actually. We could see actually if we made a real time change what it would make and what difference it would make. And yes, there were some anomalies because of Easter or different school holidays or whatever, that's fine, you can take all of that out, but you need to understand actually if you make a decision, what's the impact going to be? And ideally you want to have that understanding before you make the decision.
Andy Povey: Yeah. And I think one thing I picked up from what you're saying is actually test it, try these things out and don't be scared. I had a big conversation with someone last week about family tickets and yesterday were presenting with Ollie from navigate about the alpha research into how families just aren't not two plus two anymore and the society has moved on, society has changed. Do you really need to be discounting your primary market? If you're a family venue, do you need to be giving people a discount? Your main, your biggest audience, do you need to discount for that biggest audience?
Richard Paterson: eah. And again, so it's interesting because actually understanding who our audience is. So is it. So are we targeting and are we marketing a family or actually are we targeting a grandparents or are we targeting people who are at that point of retirement where they don't have grandkids but they don't yet have, but they have a load of pre disposable income and they just want a nice day out and understanding all those different markets and all these different segments. And what we also have discovered is for, not for a period, not long after Covid, we stopped targeting people within an hour's drive of the venue because we just assumed it completely crazy, because we assumed they would just know who were and they would just naturally come and you'd get natural organic traffic. Well, actually, that doesn't make any sense.
Andy Povey: I'm getting the look on your face that you didn't.
Richard Paterson: No, because that's our primary market and those are the people we should absolutely be targeting, because those are the people who will come more than once, they will spend, whether they even just come and buy something in the gift shop or they just come and buy a coffee and that's fine. Those are the people we should actually be targeting because those are the easiest to reach.
Andy Povey: Absolutely.
Richard Paterson: We shouldn't be targeting someone in Shetland.
Andy Povey: No, no. We. We talked earlier about the conflict between the curatorial side and the commercial side. How do you manage those red lines and how far is too far?
I think it's really difficult. So all venues, big and small, will have a capacity limit at one stage. So you can. You can't push that capacity and you can't keep pushing more people through it. I think we have done some interesting stuff around understanding. So, again, a really good example. So we are going to have to do some conservation work across all our properties, but in particular at Anne Hathaway's cottage. So do you effectively blitz that work and say to a contractor, come in for three, six months and just do the work and close the venue, but you cut off a revenue stream? That doesn't make any sense.
Richard Paterson: Do you hire contractors to do the work, to do the maintenance and people can work around them and we start to talk about the conservation work as they're working, maybe give a discount, because actually it's not going to be quite the same experience that they're going to. They'd ordinarily have. I think it's a really interesting dynamic to go, actually. What do you do? Personally, I believe you should make it real for people and actually let them see the conservation work in action and in live in real time. Because people really love that kind of stuff.
Andy Povey: With a little donation box next to it, ideally with a bit.
Richard Paterson: Little tone it tap and donate donation box next to it, because people will get it and people will understand. And you. You won't get 100% of people doing it, but you'll get enough people who Go, actually, I completely understand. And actually, if you've got people who are doing that work who are engaging, interesting, who will actually not be scared to have a chat.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Richard Paterson: That. Actually, that only helps the offer, and I actually think it enhances the offer because actually people are. Do. Do care. Are interested in what you do and how you do it and why you do it. So you can give a bit of your. You can give a bit of yourself, I think. And I think it's very easy to be very standoffish, bit austere, and go, actually, I can't. We're a perfect organisation from the outside, and therefore everything's perfect. That's just not what people want, though.
Andy Povey: No, no, it's back to that authenticity, the reality and the storytelling, isn't it? Which has been a common theme in all of the podcasts that we've done in the past six months. We're coming to the end of our time, parting thoughts from you, from everybody who's in the audience at home, and then we'll open up to questions from the floor.
Richard Paterson: Yeah. So I think my primary closing thought really is if I was going into another venue, if I was going to another organization doing a similar thing, the thing I do amplifying is keeping things simple, going back to basics, thinking of your customer, putting your customer first, and thinking, actually, we want to appeal to the broadest selection of people. And therefore you have to have something to appeal to a mum with two kids under 10. And you need to have something that appeals to someone who actually really wants to understand the detail. So you can do all things to all people. You can do that in a relatively easy way, in an engaging way. And so that would be probably my primary.
Andy Povey: Really useful and good advice for anybody that's out there running in attraction. I mean, that conflict between the aficionados who tend to be your volunteers and tend to be your trustees and the mass market is something that I'm hearing repeated time and time again. So a continual one to keep coming back to, I suppose.
Richard Paterson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And again, one of the key challenges is how. So we know that 80% only come once. How do you get. How do you change that number 80% to 70% and that 70% to 65%? How do you do. And so one of the challenges. And going back to your previous question, one of the challenges I think we have is how do you generate enough money to put it back to make. To continue to change the offer, to continue to make it interesting to give someone who is coming back more than Once more than one thing to do. What we don't have is we don't have. We've recently opened a new exhibition called Becoming Shakespeare, which tells the story of his time and actually how he became the great man that we all know of.
Richard Paterson: But we don't have a particularly great exhibition space in itself and therefore we can't do that. Regular turnover of stuff and turnover events and turnover of different things that people want to engage in. Therefore you have to reframe and redress the houses and restore it out and continue to tell different stories in the house itself, which you can do because it's a 500 year old house. So he's got plenty of stories to tell.
Andy Povey: Plenty of stuff to go. Richard, thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation. Does anyone have any questions or comments, thoughts that they'd like to share?
Audience: Hi there. So a couple of weeks ago I saw Hamlet and Jesse Buckley just completely brought Anne Hathaway to life for me in a way that I've just never thought about before. And I just wondered, to what extent do you want. Would you lean into that? The movie? You know, are you doing online advertising saying you've seen Hamlet now come to us? Are you kind of developing experiences or anything like that? You mentioned there's been some sort of organic growth in people coming to Anne Hathaway's house. But just how far might you go with that connection?
Richard Paterson: That's a good question and I'm not sure I've got a simple answer. Hamnet is a really good example of where we've currently got a really great opportunity to start to tell the story of the man. Because for those of you who have seen it, the film is our story. Yes, there was the individuals and the relationship and the tragedy and all the other good things, but we tell that story. We tell that story through our properties and through the portfolio of properties that we have. And therefore it's a really great example. And so when we had the initial conversation back in August about what were doing for Hamlet, everyone kind of looks at each other when, well, we're not going to do anything. I was like, we can't not do anything because it's a massive opportunity.
It's going to win Oscar, it's going to be of that scale that we have to do something. So we are launching, we have just launched a Hamlet tour which won't start until kind of March, April time. But it's one of those examples where you need to think about what you've got and the kind of context in which you're setting.
Andy Povey: Thank you, Richard. Thank you for your time. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have.
Richard Paterson: Thank you. Cheers.
Andy Povey: Thank you, Richard, for joining me today. And big thanks also to Paul Griffiths and the rest of the team at the Association of Cultural Enterprises. Obviously, the conference is a huge highlight of the year, but do take some time to have a look at the many other things they do on their website. See the other great tools and resources that they make available to you.
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